Woodwork shop drawings
I appreciate you let me participate in this remarkable page.
I know that your opinion is valuable and very important. For that reason I would like to reach very professional colleagues in the wood's world not matter where you live. I have a question about woodwork shop drawings.
Does your business require shop drawings to operate?
How often does your business require them?
Do you think that preparing shop drawings in your business is useful and contributes to your business efficiency and growth, or on the contrary it is an inevitable headache and expensive?
Who does usually do them in your business? (yourself, employee, freelance, other company)
Please join,
Thank you
I know that your opinion is valuable and very important. For that reason I would like to reach very professional colleagues in the wood's world not matter where you live. I have a question about woodwork shop drawings.
Does your business require shop drawings to operate?
How often does your business require them?
Do you think that preparing shop drawings in your business is useful and contributes to your business efficiency and growth, or on the contrary it is an inevitable headache and expensive?
Who does usually do them in your business? (yourself, employee, freelance, other company)
Please join,
Thank you
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by donald ellis on -
Juan, Build a full house of cabinetry with everything in your head if you want a plethora of inevitable headaches and serious headbanging at material bill paying time.I know of a couple of shops that fly loosey goosey, without paper, and their work shows it. With questions like yours, have you ever thought of becoming a politician. Those guys are good at inventing unsolveable problems.
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Permalink Reply by Juan Medina on
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Donald, I understand that drawings are very very important. I have heard some colleagues saying that fulfill that requirement from architects and general contractors is tedious and takes long time to start working on the project. For them construction plans are enough. What do you think?.
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Permalink Reply by donald ellis on
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Juan, you've got to be kidding me ! Right? Do you realize that in a drawer there are 5 parts. so multiply that by 15 drawers in a common kitchen and you get 75 parts. sure some are common sizes but they are STILL PARTS that cost money and time and that is just drawers without fronts or guides. Right now I have a contract brought about by a lawsuit to replace ALL drawers doors and drawer fronts in a 3800 sf house. The fly by night, garage shop, half --- owner now has a lien on his house and future earnings because he kept his documentation in his pinhead. And as far as contractors and architects supplying you with anything more than floor plans.... good luck! They are fine if you are building for slambang spec houses of which I refer those builders and so called architects to their nearest big box store. At least the "big box" store has to generate paper work, to order the cabinets from the import distributor..... and that's iffy as to IF you get all the parts and they fit. Appears to me you have an aversion to paper, so i suggest you go out and round up a client and buy some lumber and build his cabinets and the hell with whether fit or not. and in order to sleep at night, befriend a GOOD LAWYER. What do I think? I still think you should get into politics, a trade that is not incumbent upon knowing your --- from a hole in the ground or dealing with paper, I mean evidence. Oh! and I'd find some new colleagues that won't B S me.
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Permalink Reply by Juan Medina on
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Donald, I think you have very powerful reasons to convince me what I have to do and I appreciate your honesty and sincerity.
Who does prepare the shop drawings at your shop?
Would you give that work to a freelance draftsman?
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Permalink Reply by donald ellis on
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Jaun, Since I'm now a one man shop since the govts invention of the downturn has put me into that position, I do my own shop drawings as i have in the past. If I were just starting out, I would invest in a computer program that did everything for my business except wipe my butt.But since I'm trying to retire and bail along with my .10 cent on the dollar equipment investment, I'm sticking with old school. To find a FREElance draftsman you can afford to shop draw your job in a reasonable, readable, and profitable program, I think would require you to develop a ton of info for him to work with, not to mention you training him to your requirements And not to mention, again, his liability and responsibility (what if it don't fit problem?) for your completed project, which requires cubic dollars for his fees. you have to think of him as another employee unless hes a friend, who worked in a cabinet shop while going to school to become a professional draftsman. There is NO FREE in freelance. I called around for you to a few architects I have worked with in the past and have got "You've got to be kidding Don! can't you do it yourself anymore" and "We'd have to do that-time and material" $$$$$$$$$$$$. If you're doing cookie cutter cabinetry, or whirligigs your biggest worry will be to beat out the big box minimum wage boys. But if your like Joshua, TOOL yourself up, learn it, and get on with it, and remember that the only one you can trust is yourself, because even your computer with garbage in generates garbage out (as seen in the shop I worked at to generate a client base and reputation after selling out my partnership and escaping Ca in the 80's). And last of all NEVER EVER trust a clients measurements, no matter how many aunts and uncles in his family were cabinet makers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's a lot more to "real custom cabinetry" than building or buying boxes and screwing them to a wall. Go to the library or buy some good woodworking books, get the point about "shop drawings", and good luck!
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Permalink Reply by Juan Medina on
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Donald,
Have you calculated shop drawings costs your business can pay per work?
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Permalink Reply by donald ellis on
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Jaun,right now I'm doing a contract for a custom home that will, with acreage on a lake that will probably appraise out at 2 mil when finished. It involved, with changes and personal meetings with my clients and subs a grand total of 107 hours to get to a complete set of drawings (floor plans,elevations, cut lists ,and purchase orders).The home will have traditional cabinetry with sourced out raised panel doors, solid maple drawers, numerous trick out items,and high end hardware throughout. Grand total is 86 cabinets, 72 drawers, 2 counter tops, and on and on. Without paper work and being able to keep everyone on the same page, not to mention ALL the fine print is drawn out instead of hidden in a bulls--t contract that only needs price and payment sched on it to be legal. just remember the large print giveth and the small print taketh away, and most of the time the fine print knows where your wallet is. That 107 hours is added into the total price, with a tad bit of wiggle room. A lot of the time is in generating the clients wishes on paper in order to snap up the job, so you gotta gamble a little and maybe even chop your price a bit, but in this "too big to fail" economy, its us "little too small to pay" guys that bite it. Ya gotta keep track of every nickle , and knowing where I'm at has always paid off for me. good luck- "retiring after this one" Don
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Permalink Reply by Juan Medina on
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Donald. let me tell you that I admire you. I think you should be very proud of what you have accomplished. Working on those big projects, would you let a freelance draftsman prepare the shop drawings for you under your supervision?
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Permalink Reply by donald ellis on
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Jaun, Thanks for your admiration. As far as supervising a draftsman, its bad enough supervising employees sanding a board or running a table saw. Would I have to go to his studio, or would he work in my office, thus making him an employee in order to supervise him? In either case, I see more expense to the bare basics of woodworking.Your question is getting redundant,move on!
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Permalink Reply by Joshua Lynn on -
Juan,
I don't even guestimate nor quote on price until I have a full set of plans, and as soon as the plans for acutual unit are finished I run my cut list and cut diagrams. I get asked a lot to hip fire a quote on the spot "Well... how much do you think that'll be?", "Lol, I have no idea until I run it thru my CAD programe and get you a quote going." and if I loose a contract right then and there... I'm totally o.k. with it. I can remember a job last year where I had to remake two doors because I looked at the customers plans and not my own, I was 1/2" off in the width (my only saving grace is that my woman is an artist and can use the old doors) but I just about threw a fit once I realized what I had done. To be honest I'm glad that it was only two doors and not the entire piece.
I just got Auto CAD 2008 and I can tell you it comes with one ----- of a learning curve, but the reason I'm so glad to have it is that it goes into more detail than I acutually need. I've got the basics down now but I don't hesitate to go thru the online tutorials to learn a new hot key. I don't like doing the paper work either, but I'd much rather have a day or two of paper work than to have a day or two remaking pieces I've already cut and paid for.
Paper work in my shop is a tool, I use it because it helps me.
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Permalink Reply by Juan Medina on
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Hi Joshua,
Have you estimated how much it costs to you to elaborate your own shop drawings?
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Permalink Reply by Joshua Lynn on
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Juan,
It really doesn't cost me that much, maybe an hour of sitting at the computer once I have a good idea of what I'm drafting. You see with the programe I use the biggest hit is right upfront, I may shell out $500+ on a programe but even if only does 100 sets of plans that's all of $5 each (I plan on getting a lot more drawing than that out of this programe) plus lets say another $5-15 each for my: power to my computer, time reaserching hot keys, and even paying my self a little for my time. I offer free quotes, so I'm spending the time drawing regardless of weather the client accepts my offer or not. Now here's what's great, I keep those drawings (so if another Joe wants some thing similar, then I don't have to draw from scratch I can use the base model and modify it but only if that'll work for the customer), also just like with any other tool or skill the more I do it and use it the faster and more accurate I will become. So what may take an hour now and cost $20+ to do, in say 6 months time may take all of 15 minutes and cost $5. Another thought to because I have had this happen to me as well, the customer will get a quote (drawings are done) and decide that now is not time... 3 months later they come back and say "When can we start?" my responce is "Let me make sure none of my suppliers have changed prices on me, but other than that how does... sound?". With the later, my drawings are still done and still accurate so I'm not redrawing, the only thing I have to check is to make sure that my materials are still good and the price hasn't changed too much.
I have done my drawing with nothing more than some paper a few pencils and a scale ruler, I'm sure the seasoned vet's have had to do the same at some stage or at least start out that way. Lol, now that takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of skill to, but again it's good to know beacause my computer may crash one day or throw a tissy fit my direction. I keep comming back to tools so I'll just go with it. Lets say I'm getting a CNC tomorrow and I have jobs waiting on it, now CNC takes a dump on me the first week. I'm not calling my clients to tell them my tool is now usless so I can't work on their job, I'm going to pull out the router and get after it. I feel the same way about my CAD, if it takes a dump then I can keep working until it gets fixed.
I totally agree with Donald, by using a freelancer you're basically going to have to give him a good set of plans or measurements any way. I like how Donald put it as well, he's paid to draft he's not paid to acutually touch any of the materials or harware or understand what a dovetail joint looks like and how it's used. I don't have a problem with draftsman either, I looked at doing it in High School, I don't have the money to pay for them nor the time to go back and fourth when I have to re-build a drawer at best because to me I know that I need at least 1/2" between the case and drawer side... or what ever the case is.
I worked in a shop that had a cool $1 mil easy just between the edgebander, beamsaw, and CNC. I was an operator watching the machine and parts making sure nothing got screwed up and if it did get screwed up I had to know why. We had plans for the pieces that we're being cut and machined with measurements on another page... I can't count the number of times where I'd have to get even those redrawn because some thing didn't look right and I found a mistake.
Juan, at the end of the day you're going to do what you're going to do. Even Donald I'm sure has his way of doing things, just as I have my way of doing things. In my shop, paper work is a tool and I use it because it helps me. As far as the cost of the paper work... I don't really care because one good job will pay for that it's a tool that in the end saves me money.
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