New To CNC

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Permalink Reply by James Lewis on March 18, 2009 at 5:36pm

Tom, as a Lean consultant, I just have one caution about using automation. Make sure you need it. That may sound stupid, but figure out your Takt Time and make sure that you maximize your existing resources before going to automation. Automation capabilities may exceed your demand and then you are stuck with an expensive piece of equipment that isn't earning you money. Make sure the supplier of the automation has built quick changeover ability in the equipment. You should be able to switch from one program to the next in the average cycle time of a part that you run on the automation. I have nothing against automation, but I believe it should be employed only when there is no other way to meet demand. If the CNC equipment you are looking at will replace a number of existing processes it might be a good investment. Make sure that the foot print of the machine will fit into a flow with existing pre and post processes so you can create flow without adding additional movement and transportation waste. Automation is a big leap. You are taking the right course by doing your due diligence.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Sams on March 18, 2009 at 7:11pm

Thanks James, My initial reaction to your comments is that I don't at this time completley utilize my equipment to their fullest. but there is a reason, I am essentially a one man operation and while I'm sitting at the keyboard, nothing is happening in the shop. Additionally, I'm nearing 60 and I'd like to be productive for another 10+ years and the idea of consolidating processing steps looks very good to me. Of course money is a factor and I don't think I want to spend 100K on one of these super machines, but something in the 40K range seems more digestable to me. Are these machines up to the challenge?

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Permalink Reply by Jim Tank on April 23, 2009 at 6:57am

Tom- Try to avoid people who do not own and run a CNC. Contact manufacturers only for names of CNC owners in your area. Talk only to people who have had their machine less than three or four years or the words dont make sense. Talk to people who are at the same $ volume as you. The more you talk to folks who are in the water just learning to swim, the more you will be able to see what you could do, ie: make more profit. I use my CNC for accuracy, productivity, creativity and diversity. And I make more money at the same sales volume. I have a Shop-Bot entry level machine and like it because it is not over my head and paid itself off in less than 2 years.

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Permalink Reply by Will Sampson on March 19, 2009 at 8:21am

Tom, Welcome to Sawdust Soup and the CNC Circle. The key issues I see in shops I visit getting into CNC are twofold. They have be able to justify and afford the initial capital investment, and then they typically underestimate the cost of training, software, and work upheaval required to get the new equipment running. I know of a few cases where this has happened and the shop was hard put to recover from the economic impact. But on the plus side, no shop I know that has met those challenges to effectively implement CNC has wanted to go back to conventional production. The opportunities presented by automation today are really pretty unlimited.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Sams on March 19, 2009 at 9:21am

Will, you're absolutely correct. There is a lot of underlying costs to be considered. Software, revamping my electrical service to handle the new demands and the training curve. All of which I think I'm getting a handle on. As I stated in my reply to James Lewis, I am a one man shop, with some nice equipment already, but to remain competative it seems the cost difference between my low overhead and and the larger companies automated equipment is beginning to favor the automation side of the curve. For instance it may take me 4 days to produce a set of Plam cabinets ready for assembly and the larger automated shop can do it in 8 hours with much less machine to machine legwork in the process.

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Permalink Reply by Larry Schweitzer on March 23, 2009 at 5:13pm

I’d advise caution on this. Even with a router you will still be at a disadvantage to the larger shop. Try not to go head to head with them. Run the numbers very conservatively. We are a slightly larger shop; we’ve had routers for 12 years or so, great machines. But we also have most of the rest of the equipment to keep up with the productivity of the router. Up until a few months ago we were running the router (a Komo @ about $150K) 10 to 12 hours a day. Now it’s running 3 hours/day! Since I never buy a pc. of equipment on the easy payment plan it’s not killing me. The learning curve has more to do with the software than the machine. It might pay to learn the software before you buy a router. We have 2 1/2 CAD men but do widely varied work in commercial fixtures. If all you are doing is Kitchens there are some good basic programs available to fairly much automate the CAD/CAM process. What would happen if you couldn’t work for a month or two?
If you have the cash & some free time it might work out fine. Monthly payments can be a real drag if things get very slow. I must admit if I was a one man show I’d likely have a router too; but then I’m a tool nut and can service about every tool in the shop. lks-inc.com

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Permalink Reply by Tom Sams on March 23, 2009 at 6:06pm

Thanks larry. I know the tool nut sickness very well and your financial advise is sound. Thanks again.

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Permalink Reply by Mick Murdock on April 6, 2009 at 2:30pm

I have ran and programed CNC machines for about 8 years now.There are several different name brands out there , and they all have good points & bad points.It depends on what you want to accomplish. You could go Nested Base which will almost make a table saw obsolete ,Or go pod & rail which are great for running 1 part at a time.I believe P&R 's are better for doing arches & more intricate parts like moulding & flutes It's all about what you need it for. If you have the work load so the machine can pay for its self I'm all for it. I think they are great. It can make life so much easier. I do suggest getting fully intigrated with a company like Planit / Cabinetware or Cabinetvision. but of coarse that is another big chunk of money.Software in not cheap along with having to go through training,and hiring someone to run the machine for you.I have seen companies try to get to big to fast and fall.You being a 1 man shop I Do Not suggest a CNC machine.

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Permalink Reply by Randy Hughes on April 7, 2009 at 4:08pm

I am a part-time, one man shop and recently purchased one of the $40K varieties of CNC. It would be hard to justify this kind of investment if it didn't use it to do some things that are next to impossible by hand. (Anything can be done with jigs, but not always profitably, with the CNC the software is the jig) I wouldn't buy one to be competitive with the box shops. They will be cheaper. The differntiation is in custom work, which is generally true for the small shop, especially in this market. The big shop can't afford the time or energy required to do custom, so their routers cut boxes. My router is being used to create unique designs that incorporate curves, lettering, and designs. When I bought the machine, I wasn't sure how it was going to pay for itself. After a few trials, and a large learning curve, I have found a few niches, including working with solid surface that look like they will pay off.

Pros:
Flexibility
Ease of handling sheet goods
Increased capability (curves, designs, etc)
Accuracy
Much faster when making multiples
Allows me to work in other areas of the shop while it is working.

Cons:
Expensive (unless you have contracts to cover the costs)
When it goes down, you are out of business - takes time to get these things fixed
Learning curve is extensive, particularly if you go beyond cabinets.
Sales price is nowhere near the real cost.
They do what they are told, if you make a mistake you know it

I am 50 and do wookworking as a hobby business. Since I have had this machine, most everything else is neglected. This tool does a lot of things, more accurately, and faster than I can. I wouldn't want to give it up.

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Permalink Reply by Ralph W. Bagnall on April 7, 2009 at 6:23pm

I started working with CNC machines back when I had to write my own G-Code! Since then, I have programmed them, run them, sold them, installed and repaired them, and trained programmers and operators. I've worked with a half a dozen brands and at least that many software packages.

The best advice I can give is this: The service and support is JUST as important as the brand machine, probably more important. A CNC will rapidly become the heart of your shop, and if it goes down, you want it back online fast.

I consult with shops to specify and buy equipment as well as how to integrate it properly and get up and running as fast as possible. I would be happy to answer any specific questions you may have, feel free to contact me, and I'll answer whatever I can. (no charge! LOL)

Ralph

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Permalink Reply by Tom Sams on April 7, 2009 at 7:35pm

Thanks Ralph, I guess most of my questions have been answered by the the knowledgable group who have taken time to give their points-of-view. I sincerely thank each of them for taking time out of their busy schedules to share their experiences.
For me the money issue is not that big of a problem. I can't justify paying the big bucks, but a Shop Bot isn't my cup of tea either. I have been looking at theShop Sabre and the Techno in conjunction with Router Cad. What are your thoughts?

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Permalink Reply by Randy Hughes on April 9, 2009 at 10:04am

Tom,
I have a ShopSabre 4896 w/5 tool changer. The ShopSabre folks have been good to work with on support issues, but the setup and learning curve were significant. Techno and ShopSabre seem to be in the same league. For a one man shop, they are priced right and perform well. As was suggested earlier, support is critical. I would recommend getting something like Enroute out of the chute, I went with Rhino and RhinoCam. They work OK, but I am looking to get to something more advanced when I can afford it.

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