Well we are buying a CNC. Now What?
Hello Group,
Here the story, we are a 5-10 man cabinet making shop located in southern ontario. We produce a moderated amount of kitchen a year, but not enough to keep a CNC machine busy for a complete shift a day.
At this point we are in a kind of information overload, what machine and software to use. Also have to look at all the other issues to consider, dust collection, electrical capacity of your shop, ROOM, material handling and on!!!
On the machine level, well service and support are on the top, but who is the best. Nesting and blind dado is most likely gonna be our construction method because we do not want to introduce more machine like a boring machine and case clamp. Point-to-point would only introduce another step not needed. We don't mind the extra time it would take to process blind dado on the machine.(again the machine will not be operating 24 hours a day).
We have look at Weeke, (vantech and vantage series) Holtz-her (Cosmec series), and Biesse (dont know with model at the moment one of the rover's). Tomorrow I'm meeting with Thermwood. What do I buy? give me your input,
SOFTWARE is probably our biggest nightmare. After using 20/20 for 10 years only as a drawing tool and not necessary using it to it's full potential ant not knowing what it is. were are told 20/20 is crap for the production side of things. One thing to keep in mind, we are a highly custom shop, with non standard things. we need to have that capability in our software. Again we have a significant investment with 20/20 we hold five licenses.
Now! here comes cabinetvision, we are at the third contact with them! they promise the world, a complete solution from design to machine with all production paperwork and toys. at a considerable price!!!! (five licenses!!!!) (OUCH!! we still have to buy the machine)
And then their's Therwood with e-cabinets!!! OH! lord help me. this post is getting long.
I'm asking a lot, but please comment on any of these concerns. I'm hoping that the combine input will help us out.
Thanks
Dave
Here the story, we are a 5-10 man cabinet making shop located in southern ontario. We produce a moderated amount of kitchen a year, but not enough to keep a CNC machine busy for a complete shift a day.
At this point we are in a kind of information overload, what machine and software to use. Also have to look at all the other issues to consider, dust collection, electrical capacity of your shop, ROOM, material handling and on!!!
On the machine level, well service and support are on the top, but who is the best. Nesting and blind dado is most likely gonna be our construction method because we do not want to introduce more machine like a boring machine and case clamp. Point-to-point would only introduce another step not needed. We don't mind the extra time it would take to process blind dado on the machine.(again the machine will not be operating 24 hours a day).
We have look at Weeke, (vantech and vantage series) Holtz-her (Cosmec series), and Biesse (dont know with model at the moment one of the rover's). Tomorrow I'm meeting with Thermwood. What do I buy? give me your input,
SOFTWARE is probably our biggest nightmare. After using 20/20 for 10 years only as a drawing tool and not necessary using it to it's full potential ant not knowing what it is. were are told 20/20 is crap for the production side of things. One thing to keep in mind, we are a highly custom shop, with non standard things. we need to have that capability in our software. Again we have a significant investment with 20/20 we hold five licenses.
Now! here comes cabinetvision, we are at the third contact with them! they promise the world, a complete solution from design to machine with all production paperwork and toys. at a considerable price!!!! (five licenses!!!!) (OUCH!! we still have to buy the machine)
And then their's Therwood with e-cabinets!!! OH! lord help me. this post is getting long.
I'm asking a lot, but please comment on any of these concerns. I'm hoping that the combine input will help us out.
Thanks
Dave
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Patrick Molzahn on -
Dave; all great questions which I'm sure will solicit many opinions. Something to consider when looking at machines are whether or not there are similar machines in the area and how close the nearest service tech is. You'll also want to know if the machine has a connection with the software vendor. Most machines should connect to Cabinetvision fairly easily. I recommend that you also look at Busellato. Delmac Machionery reps them in the US.
Before you buy the machine, buy the software. Get proficient at it so when the machine rolls in you are ready to start making $ with it. Good luck in your quest, Patrick
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Permalink Reply by Edward Garcia on -
Dave I would look at Biesse Flat Table CNC maybe a 5x10 or Bigger since your are a 5-10 cabinet shop. The software Biesseworks is easy to learn and 3d is pretty cool.We also use Solid Works for our Drawing Details.Biesseworks allows you to import DXF Drawings at the machine to create the machine codes.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Sams on
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Hey Dave,
Wow, I don't envy you your time in this evolution. I am there myself, and have been beating myself up on all the same issues. You may be looking at a machine that is way beyond your needs at this point. Look at Camaster, talk to Joe Jarrad at 866-405-7688. I have settled on them to provide my machine. And believe me I have looked at a bunch. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at their attitude, pricing, quality and willingness to work with you.
As far as software is concerned. I have used and now continue to use TurboCad for my drafting needs. It can be interfaced for use with CNC, however, it doesn't offer all the cool stuff like nesting and automatic part dissemination, etc. So I was in a pickle. I bought AutoCabinets / RouterCad. Although the folks there are very helpful, and the software seems to have great potential, there is no written documentation on how the thing works. You have to go through hours and hours of training to get the basic understanding of the rudimentary offerings of the program plus there are a lot of glitches that just don't seem to have an answer. Frustrating at best. So I too am at odds over the right software. I have used ECabinets and it is not what you are looking for either. I have rented KCDw and here again for the needs you outlined, it will fall short too. Probably the best all around software for your needs (and mine) is Microvellum. But this is way out there in the terms of cost to purchase and cost to learn. But, It is the best. I certainly can't justify it. Patrick's recommendation to by the software first is sound. The machine operation is automatic, for the most case, the old adage of stupid in = stupid out is very true here. The software is the key.
Good luck and I will be reading your posts to see your progress. Maybe I can gain in the process too.
Tom
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Permalink Reply by Jim Tank on -
Thermwood is a great company who actually builds their own office furniture with their machines. Great customer service and training. Many shops get great results with E-cabinet software. For a small shop who relys on custom high end... look at Aspire software from Vectric. Easy to learn with 3D design capabitities. Ask for a list of companies using their machinery for two years or longer and you'll get a feel for customer service. You might even call ShopBot... great for small shops and customer service is great. Lots less money if you can do some of the mechanical yourself.
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Permalink Reply by David Tuttle on -
I only know the software. eCabinets can do a whole more than it appears, but it takes work to make it do it. Cabinet vision a few years ago could do a lot, and at the WMS it seemed to be even easier to use. All the machines can/should import DFX files. IMHO I agree, look at the software, its what will stay with you and have the learning curve, the machine is just a machine...
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Permalink Reply by Bob Mathews on -
Dave; we're a Weeke shop except for the heavy routing and shaping stuff where we use Heian's. Wood WOP is fairly easy to use. Weeke provides our sister company outside Montreal excellent service and they also employ IMOS (20/20) to handle there product engineering requirements. I've never met a software supplier that doesn't promise the earth, moon and all the stars and that they will have all in place and bullet proof before breakfast. Having said that IMOS has been able to deliver the goods at least for us. With all the wood working shops going down it may be worth your while to look at the used market, however, I would not recommend anything older than 2-3 years the electronics (controller) don't last nearly as long as the machine. We work with BC Saw out of Toronto for all our CNC tooling needs.
Best of luck
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